Comments on Building Cincinnati: West End buildings doomed

i just stumbled across this site looking for somet...

2009-05-11T09:47:00.000-04:00

i just stumbled across this site looking for something else and am very interested in all the comments posted. i am a relative new-comer to cincinnati from chicago, and my children and i reside just a block or so away from the houses on bank street. when i walk through the community i am amazed at the many beautiful structures that are vacant and crumbling and it is quite frustrating, because i can visualize the community as being quite exciting and vibrant and would love to be a participant in its restoration. i have a personal vision of establishing a business in this community despite what the odds and crime reports and my current state of finances would recommend...but i believe it can be done, not sure how, but would love to have some input about obtaining and restoring some of these wonderful properties when you have extremely limited resources. it seems to me that it makes more sense to put them into the hands of people who would be willing to put the time and energy into re-creating them than to just continue to let them disintegrate or become dangerous havens for the negative activity i see from my window everyday. i know that there are others like me...

^ Thank you for such a thoughtful, well-written re...

2009-02-10T21:12:00.000-05:00

^ Thank you for such a thoughtful, well-written response.

"On Dayton,(St.) the houses next to ours were beau...

2009-02-10T14:20:00.000-05:00

"On Dayton,(St.) the houses next to ours were beautiful old Mansions, and they were over-run with black mold, I went inside them, I don't think there was much of anything salvageable but I could be mistaken,
at any rate, these buildings on Bank, does any one know if black mold is to blame?"

Black mold can be a serious issue but fortunately it is one that can be remedied with proper treatment. Nearly every structure damaged by Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans later was found to have mold problems. For those structures deemed salvagable, removal of plaster/sheetrock followed by drying and mold-destroying chemical treatment of structural framing rendered these surfaces ready for reconstruction. Unless a building is full of mold covered surfaces, (and not all mold species, including some which are black, are known to be bio-hazards) that alone should not be the sole criteria used to justify demolition. The often heard and repeated statement, "too far gone to save", is highly subjective and means very different things to many different people. If the money and willingness are there, very few structures are truly too far gone to save. Since I've worked in historic restoration construction for many years, the considerable first hand experience and knowledge gained have taught me that this fact is true. Even severely fire- damaged structures have been brought back to pristine condition when people were willing to take on the challenge.

Restoration of the Bank Street structures is certainly feasible so long as the walls are still standing, but finding anyone willing to invest their money in them may be an impossible challenge in today's tough economic environment.

Then there's the long history of resistance and intransigence by the property owners. Without the property owners' cooperation, even the most significant historic landmark might eventually be lost.

The current reality of demolition permits already having been issued in this case greatly narrows the window of opportunity to save any of the Bank Street structures. Has anyone tried to contact and negotiate with the property owners? Usually such neogtiations are successful only when there is a monetary incentive/advantage demonstrated. If there had been any prior appreciation for their historical or architectural value, they wouldn't be in such deplorable condition.

Over the years, Bank Street has surrendered almost all of its old densely built streetscape it once shared with the adjacent historic neighborhood, to the wrecking ball. These few endangered buildings are vestiges and reminders of Bank Street's vivid past when the area was then a vital part of early Cincinnati. Properly restored, they could serve as an attractive gateway entry point to more intact historic streets in the Dayton St. corridor. In turn, their restoration would help create an atmosphere for more interest and investment in this long-neglected part of the City and as a component in a broader revitalization of the West End District. The old negative, wasteful urban practices of the past truly deserve to be re-examined and changed in our greener, more environmentally conscious times of the 21st Century. "Urban Renewal" as understood today should clearly mean that old buildings can be recycled too! John S.

Thanks, Randy!

2009-02-09T11:19:00.000-05:00

Thanks, Randy!

I got some additional information from the City th...

2009-02-09T09:40:00.000-05:00

I got some additional information from the City that can be read here:

http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/02/historic-bank-street-demolitions-update.html

First, I'd like to start by saying that I used to ...

2009-01-18T08:23:00.000-05:00

First, I'd like to start by saying that I used to live at 931 Dayton and I am currently relocating from Columbus back to the West End next to 'the spot' over by McMicken and Mohawk, there is no place like home, and that is thankfully a true statement because my home is in Cincinnati! A city with a landscape such as ours, with so much antiquity on every street must be preserved!

Beyond that I love the area for all there is to do there, the Gallery hops, cool people, neighborhood grill outs and the shows at the Mockbee,
I am moving back into what most consider the 'Ghetto' in Cincy, because someone has to rent that property before it's allowed to waste away like some of the building's I've seen,

On Dayton, the houses next to ours were beautiful old Mansions, and they were over-run with black mold, I went inside them, I don't think there was much of anything salvageable but I could be mistaken,
at any rate, these buildings on Bank, does any one know if black mold is to blame?

^ Thank you!

BTW, Mr. Minihan is correct. ...

2009-01-12T17:05:00.000-05:00

^ Thank you!

BTW, Mr. Minihan is correct. However, the permit data is sketchy and not often updated. It is NOT a good source for community councils.

Dear All:
Spoke with Mr. Minnehan and was told ...

2009-01-12T10:52:00.000-05:00

Dear All:
Spoke with Mr. Minnehan and was told that permits, etc. are on line and can be looked up. As far as he knew "not as a rule" were permit matters sent to community councils. He's checking to see if there is a rule to this. Posing to DSNA whether this is a matter where we could make an overall request for the Historic District; will bring to WECC's exec committee tomorrow night.
JenEdwards

It was probably loveliest before the cancer, named...

2009-01-11T12:25:00.000-05:00

It was probably loveliest before the cancer, named humans, invaded.

Frankly, I think the city does have the right to t...

2009-01-11T09:34:00.000-05:00

Frankly, I think the city does have the right to take over buildings that sit untouched for years and even friggin' decades because it blights the community and is a drag on everybody.
It sounds like the owners of these properties want to tear the buildings down just to relieve themselves of any possible liability.
It's gotta be cheaper to sell 'em than tear 'em down.
Then again, the owners might have some wonderful new plans for the properties (doubt it).
I'm sure the area was lovely before developers came in and started building those dang buildings in the mid 1800s.

I'm glad to see so much passion and so many ideas....

2009-01-11T02:17:00.000-05:00

I'm glad to see so much passion and so many ideas.

There has to be a balance between property rights and the goals of a "me, me, me" society. I had several discussions about this tonight.

I believe that people have a responsibility to maintain property that they obtain to the standards that were there when they got them. If they have a plan to improve the property, then they should be given the right to go forward. Neglecting the property to the point that it has to be abated by the city should NOT be a right.

Several people have brought up the point of how that affects the neighbors, and I wholeheartedly agree.

This City has only a limited number of buildings built around 1845, 1860 or 1875. It part of the charm that people who visit recognize right away. Once that's lost, what do we have left? This is an asset we can use to capture investment, and most of the people around here don't even seem to care.

People who purchase property, who do nothing to ma...

2009-01-10T16:23:00.000-05:00

People who purchase property, who do nothing to maintain it, let it fall into disrepair and are then able to pull a demo permit is wrong, I agree, a property owner should not have the ability to - have their property torn down especially if it is due to lack of maintenance. If they want to build something deemed better - fine, go down that road. If they can't handle keeping a place up they have no business being there. They should look into renting.
There is something wrong when someone can buy a building that is one hundred years old or older, solid as a rock, way older than the person that bought it, hold title to it for maybe a fraction of time and be the one who decides it will no longer be a part of the city, directly affecting neighbors/future neighbors and the over all fabric of the city. Maybe the city would be better off without the place, maybe not, but who are they to make that kind of decision by themselves. Not everyone is cut out to be a property owner.
What is insane is generally giving too much power to beings without brains.

"A property owner should not be able to tear down ...

2009-01-10T11:23:00.000-05:00

"A property owner should not be able to tear down their property."
That is insane.

First, I HIGHLY doubt your neighborhood council co...

2009-01-10T09:51:00.000-05:00

First, I HIGHLY doubt your neighborhood council could "care less"...if they do, its time for you to get involved and VOTE them out. But most Cincinati neighborhood councils have boards ran by residents who live in the neighborhoods and care very deeply, otherwise they would not volunteer all their time for free. I did find out yesterday and (I am checking with someone else to clarify) that neighborhood councils DO get notified of permits for zoning issues but NOT for demo permits. IF that is factual, it needs to be changed immediately. Some neighborhoods DO get notified because they have development corps for properties in their neighborhood, but what about those neighborhoods which dont have the man power to organize such a group? Bottom line is the City needs to inform the neighborhood councils and take them more seriously so those councils can take action to preserve our communities against issues such as these.

...A slight clarification from a couple entries up...

2009-01-09T17:20:00.000-05:00

...A slight clarification from a couple entries up. "A property owner should not be able to tear down their property." Nice point, better meaning was extracted from the sentence than I intended. Whether a demo is done by a property owner literally or by a licensed contractor hired by the property owner it should not be up to the property owner to decide. On one hand it sounds like there are checks in place. On the other hand the city tears things down left and right after letting them fall into decay or even if they are in fixable shape. I know of several significant properties that desperately need to be taken away from their "owners" now. I am truly reluctant to bring their current early state of blight to the attention of the city/inspectors for fear it would jeopardize the buildings and the city would just come and tear them down or the owners would tear them down just to get the city off their back. It has happened before. Property owners should not have that much power. It would be nice to have more confidence in ones own city. And what if your community council could care less? I do not know what to do. At least these buildings on Bank Street have a louder voice behind them.

From the way it looks, the Historic Pre. is object...

2009-01-09T13:40:00.000-05:00

From the way it looks, the Historic Pre. is objecting. THe community council can probably put a stop to this right away too by objecting. I will send you a private message with my contact info and who I talked to.

The mere fact that the city allows a property owne...

2009-01-09T13:29:00.000-05:00

The mere fact that the city allows a property owner to pull a demolition permit is an example of why the system is broken.

In most cities, demolition MUST be done by a liscened Demolition Contractor who has both insurance and a bond on file with the city. Private property owners lack the skills and equipment to properly demo a house. In fact I've watched one near our house come down 'Slooowly' over the last two months and it was a safety hazard the whole time. Properties are too close to allow an unskilled person to demolish a house and this points to why the system is broken.

I also was informed that someone has filed a complaint regarding the demo permit and some neighborhood groups may not have been properly notified. So he may not be able to demo yet?

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/06/revivin...

2009-01-09T13:15:00.000-05:00

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/06/reviving-cincinnati-1407-state-avenue.html

That is the article I was referring to in my previous post...

The owner DOES have to go through the City and did...

2009-01-09T13:12:00.000-05:00

The owner DOES have to go through the City and did apply for a permit. Which he did, which the City approved. I believe the City is required to notify the neighborhood council via a letter as well which they can then object to the demo (at least that is how it works in our Cincinnati neighborhood). Whenever someone applies for a permit like this or for example intall a fence taller than the max allowed, the neighborhood councils are supposed to be notified so they can weigh in on the decision.
I do agree that if the property is not being maintained, the owner should be fine and the property should be taken from them and sold to someone who will fix the place up. Kevin did a great article on a neighbor of mine who bought a home in lower Price Hill at a City auction for I believe about $500 and was assessed in 2007 for $81,000 His home is another PERFECT example of what the City should be supporting.

A property owner should maintain the right to tear...

2009-01-09T12:49:00.000-05:00

A property owner should maintain the right to tear down buildings on their property, but I feel that they forfeit those rights when they break the law and refuse to maintain their property.

The City should fine this guy out the wazoo or take his property from him as it is clearly blighted. They could then donate or auction the building off to those interested in maintaining and rehabilitating the structures.

Doesn't he have to go through the city in order to...

2009-01-09T12:45:00.000-05:00

Doesn't he have to go through the city in order to get the demo permit? The city either says yes or no right?This owner should forfeit his privilege to own property for failing to maintain them and letting them fall into disrepair. A property owner should not be able to tear down their property - as it is they could tear it down even out of spite. That's giving too much power to the owner that might be unintelligent. And there is nothing worse than unintelligent people making decisions that affect the rest of the city.

This is NOT a City ordered demo, the owner Mr. Ree...

2009-01-09T11:02:00.000-05:00

This is NOT a City ordered demo, the owner Mr. Reed filed the permit

These are still quoted as being HSTORIC DISTICTS; ...

2009-01-09T10:28:00.000-05:00

These are still quoted as being HSTORIC DISTICTS; there are more than one in the area of old Millionaire's Row. Yes the area is impacted. Some owners/landlords have been very helpful in reaching out and connecting with community on basic levels to make it better.
Yes, many sites and even peoples' hopes are depressed here. Community Revitalization Association (formerly Miami Purchase) has stated they are working with CMHA with properties that can be demolished and/or redeveloped. Just some of the facts within the neighborhood, along with others already posted.

This is good fodder for a session,
Tomorrow, to be held at 1202 Linn Street, about West End and Community Driven Crime Control (11AM to 12 Noon in the conference room) should anyone care to attend.
Also, good topic for the community council and neighborhood association to receive. No letters on this has been sent to either group. Will check the city to see about notifications.
zephyrwindrails@yahoo.com
Jenny Edwards

I sent an email to the mayors office today asking ...

2009-01-09T10:09:00.000-05:00

I sent an email to the mayors office today asking for the mayors "official" position on these demolitions. I also posted the entire text of my email request on my blog. It should be noted that on the Mayors website it talks about his "West End" roots.

"Mayor Mallory is a life-long Cincinnatian, born and raised in the West End."

I will be interested to see what he thinks of his own city's wanting to bulldoze his old neighborhood? "IF", I get a response I wil post it on my blog. If anyopne else wants to email him and express your opinions I would encourage it. Email: mark.mallory@cincinnati-oh.gov

"Buying and restoring these buildings could be a r...

2009-01-09T09:43:00.000-05:00

"Buying and restoring these buildings could be a real good PR move by CityLinkers."

It doesn't really matter what face you paint on that dog with PR; it's still a dog, and the people pushing CL are still corrupt, (incuding and especially, Brian Tome).

Comments on Building Cincinnati: West End buildings doomed

i just stumbled across this site looking for somet...

^ Thank you for such a thoughtful, well-written re...

"On Dayton,(St.) the houses next to ours were beau...

Thanks, Randy!

I got some additional information from the City th...

First, I'd like to start by saying that I used to ...

^ Thank you!BTW, Mr. Minihan is correct. ...

Dear All:Spoke with Mr. Minnehan and was told ...

It was probably loveliest before the cancer, named...

Frankly, I think the city does have the right to t...

I'm glad to see so much passion and so many ideas....

People who purchase property, who do nothing to ma...

"A property owner should not be able to tear down ...

First, I HIGHLY doubt your neighborhood council co...

...A slight clarification from a couple entries up...

From the way it looks, the Historic Pre. is object...

The mere fact that the city allows a property owne...

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/06/revivin...

The owner DOES have to go through the City and did...

A property owner should maintain the right to tear...

Doesn't he have to go through the city in order to...

This is NOT a City ordered demo, the owner Mr. Ree...

These are still quoted as being HSTORIC DISTICTS; ...

I sent an email to the mayors office today asking ...

"Buying and restoring these buildings could be a r...

^ Thank you!

BTW, Mr. Minihan is correct. ...

Dear All:
Spoke with Mr. Minnehan and was told ...